Posted on Thursday, 9/10/2009 - 2:02 p.m. PDT — by jrock
Question of fact for a fair and impartial jury to decide, as it should be.
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Joined: Jun 2009
Current Posts: 88
Two judges issued the same ruling. Let's look at this from a global perspective. We are assuming that Mershle made a "mistake". None of us know this guy - he could just be a cold-blooded [bleep]. He wouldn't be the first officer to be one. (And certainly not the last). I suspect that Mershle was mad that Oscar wasn't being compliant. Instead of using overwhelming force (remember, there were at least 6 armed and trained officers for no more than 10 combatants - most were compliant) he chose to use a gun. The Taser defense is obviously an afterthought (I could picture Rain's making this up) Guilty people hide things - Perone was upfront about what occurred and did not waver - this tells me that at least he believed what he was doing was legal. Mershle hid and quit before providing at least a statement to IA. This is his right - but it looks bad and it makes him look guilty as sin.
There is a chance that Mehserle could be found guilty of 1st degree murder. It will put the needed fear of god into every officer to keep their emotions and egos in check.
Joined: Oct 2009
Current Posts: 5
Does not the law say you are judged by your peers? Well the people of Alameda County are Mershle's peers! Why should the taxpayers absorb the cost of sending the trial to another area? The shooting occured in Alameda County and he should be tried in that county. If he is innocent why is his defense team working so hard to move it? The people of AC are as trustworthy of an fair conclusion as any other county. Keep the trial in AC
Joined: Sep 2009
Current Posts: 202
Hang 'em high in the sky.
Joined: Sep 2009
Current Posts: 1
Should be put to sleep the same way he killed Oscar Grant III. May his soul burn in hell. I hope this follow his mother for the rest of her life as well This should send a message to all bad cops.
Joined: Jun 2008
Current Posts: 290
At the very least, Grants family should send Mehserle a fruit basket or something, since his mistake is allowing the FAMILY TO BECOME INSTANT MILLIONAIRES.
Joined: Dec 1969
Current Posts: 41
He killed a man, but obvioulsy by accident. His trail should be for manslaughter, not murder. This officer didn't plan or think about shooting Grant that day or even the minute it happened. It was an accident, tensions were high, the police were backed up against the wall, people were acting belligerant. Most police, and I mean MOST (99.9%) believe in protecting you, your family, and the public, and then want to come home alive to their own families. Cops, stop being so synical-we value and need you to enforce our laws which keep us safe. Public, value our police and remember that they are human too, and make mistakes. Manslaughter, not murder. This is wrong.
Joined: Jan 2009
Current Posts: 339
You should be a defense lawyer. You're good. Crafty with words.
Joined: Jun 2009
Current Posts: 88
You are making some broad assumptions. You don't know Mehsehle's state of mind. You assume that this was an accident but it could just as well been that this officer was angry -- this occurs all of the time. Your 99.9% is also a made up statistic.
The jury will decide based on the facts. Period. Rains and the DA are merely players in the game.
Joined: Nov 2008
Current Posts: 601
"The jury will decide based on the facts."
Not in Alameda County they won't...lol
Joined: Jun 2009
Current Posts: 88
I think I am done with this subject Mr. Clerk. You are not a cop, a lawyer, a CO or anything else. You don't know Merhsles's state of mind - he could be the 1% that is actually corrupt and did this on purpose. I think both judges saw right through Rain's BS - time to put this guy away for a long long time. By the time he gets out, his baby daughter will be middle age.
Joined: May 2009
Current Posts: 424
In your dreams!
PS, your conclusion that Mehserle's guilty of premeditated murder merely proves the point that Rains was making (which at the same time you ridicule) about public opinions!
LOL, brilliant!
Joined: Jun 2009
Current Posts: 88
another corrupt cop. Rains is just another prostitute like all lawyers. He will lie and manipulate to get this client off.
Joined: May 2009
Current Posts: 424
No, Rains is not a cop. But that's the least of the issues you seem to misunderstand.
Joined: Aug 2008
Current Posts: 144
I like to think that by the time this murderer!, gets out he will be a full fledged phag!
Joined: Nov 2008
Current Posts: 601
I think I am done with this subject Mr. Clerk.
Clerks don't wrestle with addicts and 5150's. I don't do much paper work, and I don't have a pistol or taser to fall back on when s**t gets out of hand. I depend on my coworkers and my training when I am outmatched, something lots of smaller, weaker (Or fatass) cops couldn't. Even the cops we work with recognize that we get more hands on time than they do, and I have never been condescended to by any of them.
You are not a cop, a lawyer, a CO or anything else.
That's true.
And you WERE a cop. You haven't explained why you left or why you feel so negatively about other cops. I have known former Marines who hated the Marine Corps and other Marines after they got out. It wasn't because they walked away, they were kicked out or busted down, and never fit in to begin with. The only former cops I've met that left bitter didn't leave on their own terms either.
I'm not a cop because I choose not to be. I'm not impressed by 18 academy units and 6 months of FTO. I did my year in a f**king combat zone. At least the cops I personally work with respect that. They don't get paid that much more than I do anyway, there's lots of OT.
You don't know Merhsles's state of mind
Neither do you. Difference is, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until after he's been tried, you have clearly said you would like to see him fried to set the example to other cops, completely disregarding the possibility it could have been an accident.
he could be the 1% that is actually corrupt and did this on purpose.
Really? What would have been the payoff? What was in it for him? It's not like he could get away with it. And you know that.
I think both judges saw right through Rain's BS
I think both judges had their own preceptions when they walked in to that courtroom.
time to put this guy away for a long long time.
There was 100% chance of that happening if he had been tried for manslaughter. The odds dropped significantly when they chose to go for murder 1. It will happen if the trial stays in Alameda. He'll walk if the trial is moved to another county.
By the time he gets out, his baby daughter will be middle age.
Now what was the purpose of this statement?
It shows me what kind of cop you were.
Joined: May 2009
Current Posts: 424
...as usual!
Joined: Aug 2008
Current Posts: 144
Hallalujah! the judge has got it exactly right for a change, if you cannot stand the heat get out of the kitchen!, this rogue is being correctly charged with murder!, just like the murdering jackass he really is! Gosh you people will argue with the signboards! He is a danger to the community, how can you not know the difference between, a revolver and a taser? ,Goddayum Stevie Wonder can tell the difference, prosecute the murderer to the fullest extent of the law!, he's no different from any other rogue policeman.!
Joined: May 2009
Current Posts: 424
As previously explained (by SJ Marine, I think) the burdens of proof are higher/different in a murder case than in a manslaughter case. Long story short, a manslaughter charge would've been more likely to ensure Mehserle winds up in prison (as he clearly deserves). Conversely, a murder charge gives higher odds that he could get off with none.
Joined: Aug 2008
Current Posts: 144
I see your point, I strongly believe the prosecution will have a greater chance at conviction based on video evidence alone. We will see.
Joined: Nov 2008
Current Posts: 601
The video makes a slam dunk case for manslaughter.
Convicting someone of murder requires proving premeditation. Unless there's a psychic available to testify, I don't see how you can prove what was going through his mind, let alone whether or not he mistook his pistol.
All the theories I've seen supposedly demonstrating premeditation are reaching at best.
Unless you live in a County where no one is willing to entertain the possibility of it being an accident, like Alameda, and then you can convict anyone of anything, as long as they aren't black.
Joined: Jun 2008
Current Posts: 692
The only reason he got charge with murder was a poltical decision to charge by Orloff. Orloff stopped (during his tenure, he has now quit) riots from happening. Mesehrle did NOT go to the BART station with a gun and a plan to kill Grant. That would have been premeditation. He went to the BART station because he was sent there, on New Year Eve, because of unruly crowds and fighting.
He shot Grant, and EVEN if he had shot him in the heat of passion it would have been manslaughter, not murder. There was no premeditation. No plan, no intent, no motive, no gain. He should be tried for manslaughter. But I am buying more buckshot, just in case... Cause there is NO case for murder. None.
Joined: Jun 2009
Current Posts: 88
You don't know what his intention was. If this butthead was just angry (which I suspect) he is in fact guilty of 2nd degree murder
Joined: May 2009
Current Posts: 424
If (as you say:) murder 2 is what he's guilty of, then, he might walk on this murder 1 charge.
You still happy it's not a manslaughter charge?
Joined: Nov 2008
Current Posts: 601
Then why wasn't he charged with 2nd degree murder?
Answer:
People don't care what the law says. They don't care if it was an accident or intentional. They want the max because they subconsciously keep score, and they percieve the cops dropping more Black men unjustifiably than anyone else.
But it's just a way for them to not have to cope with the fact that the leading killer of black males is black males, not cops.
Somehow it's acceptable for that to happen, but not if it involves a white cop. Hell no, that's outrageous, he must have done it on purpose. He must have been angry, he must have planed it all ahead. We want blood.
Hypocrites.
The "bad cop" they fear around every corner is their own fear and self loathing of what they themselves have become.
Joined: May 2008
Current Posts: 1379
premediation in that it doesn't require a length of time specified for premediation to begin. What it requires is proof that an individual meant to committ dangerous bodily harm to another person and that they in fact did it and had the means to do so.
Caveat: I'm no attorney but I googled the issue recently and that is what some criminal defense attorneys wrote.
Joined: Oct 2009
Current Posts: 5
Maybe, but I must admit I would have to hear and see a lot more of the film and hear from witness's befor coming to a definate opinion.
Joined: Jan 2008
Current Posts: 751
No Bobby, the distinction for being "crafty" goes to you.
Joined: Jun 2009
Current Posts: 88
I beleive that Mershle is guilty as sin. We don't know his state of mind so it is entirely possible he shot Grant out of anger (to say otherwise is mere speculation). The burden to prove otherwise is on the defense. (he has already admitted the shooting). I do not beleive the phony balony excuse of mistakenly using a Taser over his service pistol. I have been a cop myself, I know the difference - and so did Mersehle. I don't fault Rains for using this phony defense as he would sell his grandmother's virginity to get Mersehle off.
I do think that it would be prudent to move this trial to a different, yet similar, jurisdiction. There is really no downside to doing this. Moving it to LA or Sacramento would follow about the same demographics as Alameda County and would put a stop to the obvious appeal by Rains should it not be moved.
Mark my words, Merherle will serve at least 15 years. (if not more).
Joined: Aug 2008
Current Posts: 144
(moving head bac and forth)...hmm, I wonder, will they attack the above post, like they do mines? hmmm, I wonder...could it be? , could it actually be my posts they single out for attack on the murdering cop issue?? hmmm.. Im thinking yes, but time will tell, I'll monitor the replies on this one.
Joined: Jun 2009
Current Posts: 88
Cops get angry just like everyone else. I have seen cops do dumb things - just like everyone else. It is all possible that Mershle was simply angry that Grant didn't fully comply with his orders. I don't know the man personally so I cannot know his state of mind (neither can anyone else on the board).
For those of us who have been in the profession, you cannot honestly say that you have never seen a cop go off the deep end. Perhaps you covered it up, looked the other way - or perhaps you stopped it and reported it like you are sworn to do. But you know you have witnessed it at least once in your career.
This needs to be tried out in a court of law. The entire BART PD will be tried in a court of law. I think in the end, BART PD will be changed forever - not disbanded, but anyone above a LT will either be reassigned or will resign. It is a top to bottom screwup. BTW: This is not the first shooting by BART PD where the suspect was unarmed. It was just the first that was caught on tape.
Joined: May 2009
Current Posts: 424
Interesting!
Were you ever in a position of trying to detain 5 or so dubiously-cooperative brawl suspects, while for a prolonged time, also being verbally & physically taunted (and even aving stuff thrown at you by) hundreds of taunting, some drunk, cop-hating bystanders?
If so, did it affect your performance at all?
Joined: May 2008
Current Posts: 1379
in places like SF, and around the country, cops have been subject to yes tauting and often cop-hating demonstrators who often threw stuff at them during the Vietnam War and during other demonstrators. And barring the Kent State murders of 3 students, police officers don't normally shoot at people for doing this. They are trained not to. They have batons, tear gas, and now tasers too. This is nothing new. It's happened from the beginning of American history and the history of demonstrations in America of all kinds.
It certainly doesn't warrant shooting a person even if Grant didn't cooperate. All kinds of people around the country don't cooperate with police when getting arrested and they don't get murdered for it. This is not grounds for murder despite a few renegade cops on this site who do their best to promote the idea daily in this forum that it is.
It is not departmental policy nor police police nor has it ever been. And those who think murder is a justifiable response to those physically resisting arrest for minor infractions of the law are very sick individuals themselves on power trips. And there are more than a few historically who have been attracted to law enforcement for this very reason.
I've had people write me that in police forces, 30% are criminally inclined themselves to break the law, 30% are into power, and 30% are just plain normal individuals. I don't know if these figures are still true today but apparently in the case of the BART police they seem to be.
Joined: May 2009
Current Posts: 424
but IMHO it's moot. Because those political demonstrations were framed by an entirely different context, where it could be reasonably expected to have passionate physical conflict with protestors.
On the other hand, AFAIK, no such expectation or riot training applied to the cops sent to patrol for rowdy New Years BART riders. Least of all that 27 year old cop of few years experience.
Please don't get me wrong!!! In no way do I condone what he did. Absolutely not. In fact, I believe even the notion of tazing Grant was excessive force relative to the situation. But also I do believe this was a horrible accident from carelessness and being overwhelmed. Fatal errors like that happen in different context, every single day, in car crashes. It's only human.
As you may recall from my many comments on this matter, I do have an opinion or conclusion - that Mehserle is guilty. Guilty of manslaughter.
And that a very rude awakening awaits those who hope a punishment for Murder 1 can be affixed to a killer guilty of a Manslaughter killing.
...Time will tell, tho'... yes?
Joined: May 2008
Current Posts: 1379
and already highly charged situation of drunken revelers.
That being said, if I were Mehserle, I would have just pled guilty and gone in and explained the situation. I would have expressed my remorse to Grant's family and thrown myself on their mercy and the mercy of the courts.
The facts are that both cops and suspects are human beings with human emotions. Unfortunately, there is no mechnanism within our society to deal with these kinds of situation from a human standpoint. And t hat's where the problems lie in my opinion.
Mehserle is a certain type of person and he chose to handle the situation in a legalistic manner as "cop just doing his job". Although this was the context in which the shooting took place, there is also a deeper social and historical context as well.
Again, I believe it's too bad Mehserle chose to handle the situation in the legalistic manner in which he has chosen. Perhaps he calcualted he would get a shorter sentence for doing so. And people do have the right against self-incrimination. But there are deeper issues here of morality and what moral people do in situations where they are immoral. And these issues are not just religious ones or for priests or religious people. They apply to all of humankind IMO.
Joined: May 2009
Current Posts: 424
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong? But, I do seem to recall Mehserle was given the bad advice to quit (to avoid BART I.A. questioning) by an attorney who he later fired, and eventually replaced with Rains.
Joined: Jan 2008
Current Posts: 751
You are correct Chris. If memory serves that lawyer did not specialize in criminal law and had little, if any, experience in defending cases of alleged police misconduct.
Joined: Jun 2009
Current Posts: 88
oh yes, blame the lawyer. Sounds exactly what a criminal would do. He made the decision - and how do you know he followed bad advice? (I will clue you in - YOU DON"T - you are just guessing)
Joined: Jun 2009
Current Posts: 88
Yes -
And they were not being taunted by hundreds of bystanders. There was not even 100 in the train. Their were no less than 6 cops for no more than 10 people and only 2 were being abusive. It 6 cops can't handle that, they need to find another profession.
I have handled situation where there were 5 deputies for nearly 200 convicted felons in a brawl. We handled it without significant injury. It is all about command presence. It is something that has been lacking with the BART PD for years. Did you see the KTVU report where they interviewed the Chief and Commander? Wow - the lack of any command presence was really apparent even in the interview. I felt no sense of confidence in these two men.
For the record, after 5 years, I grew tired of the hours and decided to finish my engineering degree. I am still in contact with a large number of mostly intelligent officers --- some who agree with me that some officers have no business in the profession. Officers themselves can choose to out these types, or they can opt for the alternatives such as Cop Watch, ACLU, or YouTube to do it for them (unfortunately it is becoming more of the latter that outs the bad ones)
Joined: Jan 2008
Current Posts: 751
So you quit! The hours are brutal, and oftentimes inhumanly long. After five years it was wearing on you. Imagine a full career where your sleep and life has been adversely affected by those hours. That too has a significant impact on mood and behavior. But you couldn't handle it. Good of you to admit. I note that you describe a custodial setting. I assume you and the other deputies felt relatively certain there were no guns or other weapons that could hurt you when you entered this brouhaha with the inmates. Did you enter into the fray or did you stand at the periphery and deploy some sort of strategy from that location? There is a difference between standing in the relative comfort of the jail and being the one who puts hands on the guy to send him to jail. The transfer to the streets usually comes after doing about 5 years in the jail. How much time did you do on the streets where the criminals you met had not yet been searched for weapons? Just curious.
Joined: Jun 2009
Current Posts: 88
I have worked the jail, courts, and the streets. I can tell that you have NEVER worked in a jail. You get assaulted quite a bit more in the jail as EVERYONE is the bad guy - not just the 1% that you find on the streets. Stand around? Are you kidding? Relative comfort of a jail? Now you are showing your true colors - the colors of not knowing at all what you are talking about.
I work in the Silicon Valley as an engineer. 60 hour work weeks are the norm and having to double back on nights and weekends to support the systems that I am responsible for is common. It does wear on you. The good thing about law enforcement is you get paid for every hour you are working - I don't. (salary only).
Having a gun or not makes little difference. You shouldn't even consider deadly force unless it is absolutely necessary. There is a saying that you should not pull your gun unless you intend to use it. The reality is that you shouldn't pull your gun unless you have a legal right to use it. IMHO, Mersehle did not have the legal right to pull his gun as the situation was under control (again 6 officers and only 2 people who were not cooperating - that is what is known as overwhelming force). It is all about command presence. Some officers have it - some don't. Obviously the BART officers on the platform (including sadly the ex-Marine which is inexcusable) did not possess this vital skill.
As I stated previously, big changes are in for the BART PD. I am guessing the ex-Marine and perhaps the female officer will not be returning to duty (either terminated or they will quit - I can tell you that they will never be effective in their current positions). The Chief is already gone (would have been fired but he decided to pull a Tucker and quit before being canned) - and I suspect the entire command staff will be reorgnized.
There are a lot of great BART PD officers. Most of them were hired back in the 1980's before BART's standards slipped. It used to be a tough department to get in. The Sheriff's Office used to be the joke - now everyone wants to work for the SO because Plummer used his political weight to change things. Now BART and Hayward PD's are the joke departments in the Bay Area. It can change - it has to change. Like the OPD, new management will make significant changes - hopefully for the good.
Joined: Jan 2008
Current Posts: 751
Oldgal - Please learn to communicate in English before worrying whether anyone is interested in the rantings of a former cop who was probably fired for misconduct (God I would love to know what he did to get his butt fired!) Why don't you ask him to tell you why he is no longer the police? Make him give an honest answer, not one that suggests that he simply got tired of the evil and corruption he saw. That is just straight BS.
Joined: Oct 2009
Current Posts: 5
Joined: Jun 2009
Current Posts: 88
Better pay and less BS. LE is a tough profession that is not for everyone. Even some of those who managed to slip by for 30 years had no business in the profession. I decided to use my Masters degree for something better. I miss the people I worked with (it is a great profession) and certainly the pension (no one can even come close).
Before ranting on someones English skills, be reminded this is a forum- not an essay. I also pretty handy at Tech Writing so I can write very well - thank you.
Joined: Nov 2009
Current Posts: 4
Thank you for taking care of another criminal even though it was an accident. He should be awarded for what he did, he got rid of a criminal with an extensive rap sheet. He did not murder anyone, he did not have the intent nor did he want to. The charges brought against him are false, and he is a victim of all those goons using the race card. He is a victim of racism. I SUPPORT MEHSERLE.