Posted on Wednesday, 11/11/2009 - 12:55 a.m. PST — by che joubert
It seems completely plausible to me that a helpful bystander might run from the police if that person is a high profile young man. I hope no one finds this man guilty purely by presence at the scene. It's not that I know he's innocent, but that it's amazing to me how many bloggers write in just to spew out venom at anyone who is even vaguely related to the subject matter, such as parents or possible good samaritans. This is a situation where prosecutors strongly want to identify and convict anyone guilty, so it might show some maturity not to engage in any kind of 'mob rule' whether on the streets or on a blog.
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Joined: Jan 2008
Current Posts: 837
It is plausible he ran from the police because he was scared of the big, bad po-leece! He is holding himself out as a concerned citizen who helped the victim! How? By offering his shirt which was not on her when the girl who called 911 found her? By not calling for an ambulance (since he is so scared of the police) for someone he believed might be near death? By not coming forward as a witness until AFTER he was arrested? Oh my goodness! Give this man a medal! Put his name in the history books right next to Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. as one of the most altruistic and caring humans to have walked this earth! I hope whoever is around when this hero is shot someday in some gang b a n g e r driveby or drug thing (just a wild guess) will show him a little more humanity and compassion than he did for this girl.
Joined: Nov 2009
Current Posts: 3
Your snideness betrays your utter lack of understanding of the complex relationship b/n cops and at risk youth. Of course, no one is saying this guy should be commended. On the other hand, it's easy to understand why an innocent kid would run: out of fear that the cops would either jimmy up a case against him or force him to testify against his friends (thus potentially putting him in greater danger than the mere prospect of going to jail.) It's very possible that something like this was unfolding -- it's clear that the prosecutors determined that there was not enough evidence to charge him despite his arrest (and one can probably guess questioning without representation).
To show your level of malevolence before all the facts are out really shows a doltish engagement with the reality out there. Enjoy your ivory tower!
Joined: Jan 2008
Current Posts: 837
I live in the real world and my engagement with reality is not in question. Of course your I've-watched-The Wire-so-I-know-how-the-cops-are sense of reality leaves a lot to be desired. For instance, he is reported to be 21 years old making him not an "innocent kid." That makes him an adult in my book. Yes, there is a real danger of retaliation for testifying against known criminals. So why is he coming forward now to set the record straight? In the article it sounds as if he is straight up telling on his boy who told him to get lost. Sounds like dude might meet that hail of bulltets sooner rather than later. The prosecutors have not declared him innocent. The prosecutors have declined to file charges until the DNA evidence becomes available. Once that evidence is available they may not have enough evidence to charge him. That does not make him innocent. He was arrested a few days after the event. If the only thing he did was jam a few fingers or a foreign object in the victim there would not be any DNA left behind on him (he probably washed his hands) or her. It sucks to think that he could be guilty but there is no way of proving it, but you choose to ignore that reality. Thank you though for assuming that the Richmond PD violated his right to counsel. You were there? Enjoy your fuzzy understanding of the law and your rose colored glasses!
Joined: Nov 2009
Current Posts: 3
Where does all of your bitterness come from? The concern here is people making such violent conclusions without having all of the facts. You should get all the information before you lynch someone. That's all I'm saying.
Joined: Nov 2007
Current Posts: 2
I see your point ER.
The circumstantial evidence against this young man is pretty damning though. At the very least, he is guilty of not doing enough in the court of moral opinion.
So as far as I'm concerned, he is just part of the endless cycle of violence and apathy we see and hear about every day.
The inhumanity outrages us. Both against the perpetrators, and those who would stand around and do nothing or very little.
Joined: May 2009
Current Posts: 467
This article says that's what he claimed. Alibi sounds fishy to me.
(But after my checking other news site that gave more details than this Oak.Trib's poorly-worded report, I now understand he was skateboarding around - then he came upon the scene, and stuck around to watch 20 minutes.)
That other report also details he feels no guilt at all for not lifting a finger to anonyously call for help, as he spectated the girl getting KICKED IN THE HEAD etc. all that time. Interview video is at:
abcnews.go.com/WN/Health/witnesses-california-gang-rape-scared-call-police/story?id=9054150
Er22, you weren't there either. So, imho, your assertion cops "probably" violated suspect's Miranda rights reveals your own bias against police and towards justifying criminal conduct. And your anger sounds like you believe those whose job (or whose concern) it is to get justice for that bludgeoned rape victim, are the criminals. As if!
Also imho it bears repeating, the victim was white and most of her attackers were not. Media is blatantly overlooking the race "hate crime" angle, (which would be topping the reports had the girl been black!), which I hope prosecutors will be considering when they charge the thug rapists... and possibly witnesses too.
Joined: May 2008
Current Posts: 107
Yeah, good point. If it were a young black woman getting the same from a group of white kids, we'd had riots, cop cars burned, stores looted, etc. The homies woulda went there.
Joined: Sep 2007
Current Posts: 591
I'm going to keep it real here & my truth will likely offend some who are racist in here & others who are in denial of the truth. I agree w/ Chris that this has the characteristics of a hate crime considering many of us figured she was white for several reasons. This is why the only white boy there needs to be shot for allowing that to happen to his own ppls. But than true unity only seems to go hand in hand w/ a history of oppression amongst cultural groups. Common sense & as usual it also has to do w/ the way a female carries herself which other reports from teens & teachers verified. I'm not saying it makes it okay but all that just seems to go w/ the territory when things like this happen. Many of us have seen white girls as far back as when I was in school, chase behind Latin boys, and these days many leave their good homes to prostitute themselves for black and Mexican boys. I see them right here on them right here on E14th when they should be in school...many of them come from small towns. All minorities know this but seemingly staying quiet about it while others try to sugar coat it for the press. What I constantly find myself wondering is if she would have even told her parents had someone not called the police, and made something up..or would her own parents have reported it. I've seen a lot of parents (Mexican, white and black), refuse to call the police b/c they fear the same retaliation as the kids who witnessed this rape crime. This isn't the first time this has happened for those of you who are shocked but I'm glad this particular time it made the headlines b/c parents have to learn to pay more attention to their friggen boys, and be more mindful of their girls. What I don't agree w/ in Chris's post is if she was black it would be topping the reports. For one thing a black or Latina wouldn't go sit alone w/ a white group of skin heads (or whatever white gang), and DRINK to get drunk?? That picture don't even exist. If the tables were turned & she was black or latina in a white city, we wouldn't even be reading about it. What shouldn't be forgotten is that it happened to black girls and women ALL THE EFFING TIME back south for over 200 yrs, and to other minority races...and it STILL happens to minority youths till this day every single time a racist rogue cop beats, shoots & even murders them, raping them of their dignity...just because. As upset as whites feel towards this incident is how upset we feel for every assault against our youths. Oh b/c Oscar went out on New Years & wasn't home w/ his son he deserved to be assaulted and killed? That's what some of you in here echoed repeatedly. So this girl went out for her homecoming and walked the streets late at night instead of having her father pick her up AT the school. Worst yet, left to sit w/ ALL boys, Mexican boys at that, and drink, so she must have had it coming too? Not. I know that crossed the minds of at least few white members considering their past postings of hate towards ALL youths, faking like u care about the girl when u only desire to lash out at the boys...cowards behind a monitor who are no different than these young witnesses rolling w/ the majority. It's just a handful of confused hypocrites in here ( and no I wasnt referring to Chris. I dont recall her postings towards Oscar)
-no need to hit me back, I POST AND KEEP IT MOVING
Joined: Dec 2007
Current Posts: 135
Yeah, I have some experience with this (observing the behavior of white girls -- mine! -- in re black/brown guys) and I tend to agree with most all bluepeas points (on this issue alone). If something bad results, the girls would lie about it.
Joined: May 2009
Current Posts: 467
Yes you're entitled to parade your lack of reading comprehension of what reporters and readers write of this crime. And yes you're entitled to parade your own racism. The part where you (= someone who claims to be streetwise) injected "skinheads" into this discussion was a real treat! Your fantasy of white separitists teaming with nonwhites to do such vicious attack on a white girl, was a real hoot.
If nothing else, that (plus your clear baiting for reactions you feign being indifferent about) relieved me of the impulse to bother taking you seriously or of correcting your many misquotes of what I (and others) have said.
PS, Oscar Grant (who you're on first name basis with?!) had a daughter, not a son. But anyway, the simple fact you even invoke his case in discussion of this rape case, despite your intentions, you indirectly proved the point I was trying to make (about the race "hate crime" angle topping reports of only selective cases where it genuinely applies).
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 65
You are such a racist, Blupeas. Even if you have something good to say, you lose credibility when you get so racist in your rants.
Joined: May 2008
Current Posts: 107
all you gotta do is listen to the music(?) ravings of artists (?) like L'll Kim, BIGGE and TWOPAK to see that whole culture demeans all women. Raise the young while shoving that ghetto crap down their throats, and then call me a racist. Its right there for all to see. Call a potato a potato,
Joined: Nov 2008
Current Posts: 331
Personally, I like how bluepeas writes off the problems of her race to what happened "back south for over 200 years". Exonerating a whole race for occurences that, even if they did occur "ALL THE EFFING TIME", occured over 100 years ago. At least she got the gender correct, unlike with O. Grant's child.
Joined: Nov 2008
Current Posts: 331
I also must commend bluepeas on her overall style. In virtually every instance, I end up with a less favorable opinion of the odious perp than I did before attempting to read her defensive, and clearly ridiculous, comments.
Joined: Jul 2009
Current Posts: 65
I read he watched for 20 minutes.....20 minutes. Why didnt he call the anonymous tip line for vpd if he was afraid of retaliation? I bet this man does some time for something he did that night, he should, f***ing coward.
Joined: May 2009
Current Posts: 467
I didn't know that part, until you explained it here (and then I confirmed it on other news sites).
Seems that, yet again, Oakland Trib. writers here selectively omit certain relevant facts for its readers.
Joined: Jun 2008
Current Posts: 236
You took the words right out of my mouth. We will see if this son of a [bleep]es dna popps up with the others. All I know is this.............. I see somebody dying on the streets, Im calling the police and amulance no matter where I'm at. I';m not totally buying this guy's story though. Appearently che has a different opinion which it is intitled to. But I think that whoever is out there advocating for the defense of these cancers of humanity should stop and think for one minute if this WAS THEIR DAUGHTER THAT THIS HAPPEND TO. They ALL need to [bleep] die!
Joined: Nov 2009
Current Posts: 3
No one wants to get involved,,, Cowards. Where are all the real men?
Joined: Sep 2007
Current Posts: 591
dumbartonman says, "Where are all the real men?" but I guess some of you are so focused on the ugliness of the crime that you forget these are kids who aren't even close to maturity, obviously. They haven't the experience of an adult nor the mind set to think on an individual level yet. Adolescents and youths act and react on a peer to peer level. In other words, they can easily get swept up w/ the crowd even if they have good, responsible parents. This is the main reason parent fight to keep their kids from getting caught up w/ the wrong crowd of friends
Joined: May 2007
Current Posts: 9
I think this person who made the comment about I thought she was dead is 21. That is an adult. He has no excuse for not stepping in and stopping or at least calling the police. The other younger boys might of been looking to him for a sign to stop and when he didnt say anything as the adult in the situation they kept going. I do blame anyone who was there either participating or watching. We need to raise our kids to do the right thing. Stop being followers and be your own person. What if that was their sister or mother. What would they think then. Believe me they would look at this in a whole different light.
Joined: Jun 2009
Current Posts: 119
a 5 year old knows a mob beat-up session is wrong. even if not yet knowing what sex or rape are! and by age 15, kids are definately thinking as individuals. definately enough to know right from wrong. those violent 16-21 year olds that did this, knew it was wrong too. no excuses fly on this one!!!
Joined: Nov 2009
Current Posts: 2
"People say, 'Why didn't you call the police?'"‰" Rodriguez said. "But at the same time, I live in Richmond."
I live in Richmond to and thats exacatly WHY I would of called the police. You can either be part of the problem... or part of a solution!
I said this before when you call the police they will ask for your name.. all they want is any name.
How hard would it had been to walk away from this situation get to a phone and call for help.
I will wait until they run the test to see if he was there or not before I yell guilty. I think he made a very stupid mistake in not calling for help.
Joined: Nov 2009
Current Posts: 6
You "thought she was dead", watched her being beaten and gang-raped for twenty minutes, one of the alleged rapists was your ex-roommate, and you did not attempt to intervene in any way? You did not make an anonymous call to police or alert a school official at the dance?
Hard time believing you had enough "empathy" to later offer her your shirt (which was not found on her).
All those who WATCHED, CHEERED, LAUGHED while this girl was gang raped and beaten are PARTICIPANTS in this crime and should be charged in my opinion.
Joined: May 2009
Current Posts: 467
but they have no interest in turning over their image souvenirs to help prosecute the rapists.
Go figure.
Joined: Jan 2008
Current Posts: 837
Seems that there is a lot of "snide bitterness" in these forums. Maybe we aren't snide and bitter, but just fed up with criminals, their lies and their apologists (you and Bluepeas who seem to think that a man old enough to buy a drink in a bar is a child.) He watched for TWENTY MINUTES! Oh yeah, he was afraid of the police! Give me a break.
Joined: Nov 2009
Current Posts: 2
Those who cheered on and encouraged this brutal beating and gang rape should be charged with aiding and abetting. Even if Rodriguez is lying, the mob would have played a major role in preventing anyone from interfering and influenced the severity and duration of the two and a half hour series of vicious violations and assaults. Those who recorded it should be charged with the production, possession and possibly the distribution of child pornography.
It has been clearly stated that the victim considered Smith, the one who lured her to the secluded site of the attacks, a trusted friend and seems to suggest that the victim could have been singled out for what may have been a planned and premeditated attack. The fact that the younger ones are being charged as adults and all the accused face life suggest this may be the case. There are just too many details that cast doubt that this was simply a crime of opportunity though I suspect it may have been for some who participated.
Smith could have easily known when she was leaving the dance and could have contacted her by text or previous arrangement to meet up to share some alcohol or even to just say goodnight. If Smith was capable of luring her to and taking part in the numerous rapes and assaults, he would have been more than capable of faking a friendship for months to get what he wanted. Some of the most brutal psychopaths the world has ever seen are (or were) capable of being very charming and likable.